In this conversation with Jesús Toledano, he looks back on his career and gives his thoughts on the current Brazilian team and some of their star players ahead of their Copa América opener against Costa Rica.
Primarily, we should talk about the Brazilian national team. In the 48th edition of the Copa América, are Argentina the team to beat right now for the Brazilians?
"We know the rivalry and the tradition that these two countries have. When they play each other, it's like the world comes to a standstill, both the matches in Brazil and in Argentina. They are two teams that go all out, one wants to beat the other, thus assuming the best football in South America. The rivalry there is extremely high.
"I was lucky enough to play matches with both Fluminense and Vasco de Gama and the Brazilian national team against Argentinians, both at national and club level and if we beat each other, we were already champions. The rivalry is very big.
"Look, I had the happiness of playing with several Argentinians when I played for Fluminense and Vasco da Gama. And we used to talk about it, we wanted to beat each other to see who was the best of the two countries. And we haven't come out of it, until today. It seems that if we play a match, it's a final. At the start of the competition, it's a final. And of course, the South American teams, both Argentina and Brazil, when they play against each other it's something that seems like... the world is coming to an end. That's what we live for.
"Well, recently there was a match between an Argentine team (Boca Juniors) against Fluminense in the final of the South American championship. And it was tremendous. They went to Rio, not to watch the match. They went to see the match, but they were in Copacabana and they practically destroyed my Rio de Janeiro. But people didn't go to watch the football, some wanted to watch the football, others wanted to be on the beach partying and looking for a good time and nothing else. As the countries are not very far from each other, the rivalry is tremendous."
I suppose there is a sense of lingering revenge after the last Copa América final, which Brazil lost to Argentina. That hurts, doesn't it?
"It hurts, it hurts. As I said before, if you lose against other South American countries, nothing happens. But we don't like to lose to Argentina. It's a rivalry that will last forever. It's been going on forever. I remember when I was little, I went to Maracana to watch a Brazil-Argentina match. That was already happening. That will go on forever."
What do you think of Dorival Junior's selection for this Copa América? He has chosen a lot of young players and there are also some notable absentees such as Casemiro.
"I'm with Dorival because I don't like Casemiro at all. I always said that. When I played in Brazil I played in that pivot position. He is a midfielder who recovers a lot of balls but then doesn't know what to do with them.
"For me, that sort of player should be out of Brazilian football. Because, look, I should say the coach who won the 1994 World Cup, he was my physical trainer at Fluminense, right? So Brazil won the 94 World Cup with Dunga and Mauro Silva as the pivots. I played as a pivot in Brazil, you know what I mean? So that's why I'm a bit against players who know how to win balls back, who play in front of the defence but then don't know what to do with them.
"So I'm very critical. I was very critical of Parreira at the time because he played Dunga and Mauro Silva, Brazil won the World Cup and since that time in 1994, Brazil hasn't lifted its head. Because we like the classic players like Falcao, like Pintinho himself, we, you understand, who play in that pivot position, that people respect doing that and there's nothing out of this world but, man, among the players we have there, I liked Andrade more than that, you know what I mean?
"I'm a player who started playing as a number 8 here but in Brazil, I played as a pivot in the position of Casemiro, Fernando, Fernandinho, all those people that I don't like."
Dorival has a good problem up top, doesn't he? With talented attackers like Rodrygo, Vinicius Jr., Savio, Endrick and Gabriel Martinelli, how does he fit them all in?
"Yes, yes, it's better that way. As a coach, I like to have these options. To have this problem and to have players who, as we say here, the coaches who are from the south-eastern part of Brazil, we like to play good football and the players from the south of Brazil are more combative, they are more European as we say.
"So, he is taking players who are brilliant, who still have a lot to play for because there are some who have more name than game.
"I hope Brazil do well and that they represent us, because football is everything there. So, I hope he puts together a good group and that those who have to play, play and play, and not for the press to put pressure on them. The coach has to be there for everyone.
"Let's see if Brazil recovers a bit of that football from my time, from the time of many of Zico, of Pele, of Tostao, of all those people Gerson had to win the World Cup. They have to win because the truth is that Brazil suffered a decline in football after 1994 because the coaches wanted to put people in to run like crazy and what I was saying here in Europe, right? In Europe, I ran a lot and played little football, now in Europe they don't play football and in South America what we do most is run."
'We have to stop comparing Endrick to Pele'
One player everyone is talking about is Endrick. Already signed by Real Madrid, he is doing quite well for the national team. Can he break through as a star at this Copa América?
"It depends on the opportunity he has, the truth is that this kid is standing out because he is a player who, despite his youth, has a lot of personality and is a player who is having a brilliant competition. It comes from last year, when he started playing and people have a lot of hope that he will be an excellent player. But let's stop comparing him with Pelé and those things because that can spoil it."
Do you see him succeeding at Real Madrid or do you think he should wait a little longer before making the leap?
"I am one of those who thinks that players should enjoy their country a little bit and prepare themselves to make that leap. In my time, Dirceu and I were among the pioneers to come to Europe and we did it when we were 24, 25 years old.
"It is good that the players are trained first and then take that step, but since now everything is going on, grandpa or dad is trying to solve their financial problems and the players play three good games in Brazil and are already going to Europe.
"People have to be more aware of getting better preparation so they can truly succeed because there are players who come here with a big name in South America, not just in Brazil, then they arrive here and disappear from football. The kids, the family should think about that a little."
Another player who moved to Europe young is Rodrygo. With the arrival of Kylian Mbappe at Real Madrid, he could be pushed out of the team. What should Rodrygo do?
"We'll see, Rodrygo is a player that I particularly like, we'll see if he has a chance to play. If not, he'll look elsewhere, because he's a player who disappears from the map if he doesn't play. I hope he plays for Real Madrid, which is a team that always has a very large squad and that's good for the coach, I would like to have Real Madrid's squad. But I particularly like Rodrygo more than Vinicius."
Speaking of Vinicius; there is a section of the press that has nailed on for the Ballon d'Or. Has he done enough to merit it?
"I have been very critical of Vinicius. He is a player who left Flamengo, came here and people gave him all the support in the world. But he started with the issue of racism. I've been here for 44 years and I've never been called 'n****r'. But what happens is that he, as he is a provocateur... Well, now he's a bit better... He's a bit of a clown, what he has to do is play football.
"Now the kids who are young, they have two beers, they go to the football pitch and they provoke him so that he drops his guard and doesn't do what he has to do on the football pitch, which is to play, which is his profession. I've been very critical of him, but now he's a bit better, they've given him a little nudge and he's a bit better in the head. But the truth is that he still hasn't convinced me as a player... in any way, I'm not just talking about football.
"He has to be an example for the youngsters and the issue of his provocation doesn't really enter my head, but he is improving and I hope he improves even more for his own good, for the good of football and for the good of all his family, for his family, for him to be a person who sets an example, which he didn't do before."
